FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY

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The magnetic trackers are notoriously inaccurate, assuming you are in an 
environment with any ferrous metal or magnetic interference.  They also 
have a fairly substantial amount of lag.

If the environmental interference is fairly constant, you can calibrate, 
but even moving monitors can screw things up again.

We use an Intersense IS-600, which is better suited in many ways (faster, 
more accurate).  The downside is that you need line-of-sight between the 
receivers and the transmitters (on the ceiling) which makes them less 
suitable for hand tracking.

We have had luck combining the two, when I was a student of Steve Feiner's 
at Columbia.  We used an ascension for hand tracking (since no line of 
sight is required) and other technology for head tracking (I'm pretty sure 
Steve uses an Intersense now).

As for ease of programming, they are all about the same (talk to some box 
over a serial port).


--On Thursday, February 1, 2001 4:30 PM +1030 Andrew Pennington 
<andrewtp@s ...........> wrote:

> FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
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> restaurants...& much more!\n\n
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi All,
>
> Which 6DOF magnetic tracker is best overall for head and hand tracking in
> augmented reality applications out of  the polhemus and ascension
> trackers?  The platforms we use are
>
> - PC  with a (Sony glastron) Head Mounted Display
> - wearable PC with HMD.
> - SGI box with HMD
>
> The software will be mostly written inJava (with Java 3D).
> Accuracy and latency are (slightly) more important than range. We wish to
> track the user's head and one hand, however, additionally tracking the
> other hand plus some other object or tracking the head and one hand of a
> second user would be very useful. Any comments  on people's experience
> with ease of programming, callibration, noise, distortion or other good
> fun would be most welcome.
>
> many thanks in advance
>
> cheers,
> Andrew Pennington.
> Wearable Computing Lab
> University of South Australia.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to ARforum-unsubscribe@l ..........


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Andrew,

I have been working with the Ascension trackers, but not Polhemus.  Here are 
some impressions...

To second Blaire's comment...  My particular environment (metal and 
monitors, etc.) is very unfriendly to the tracker leading to an effective 
range of maybe 2 feet before the noise becomes an issue.  I have noticed 
better performance in different venues, but you should be very aware that 
noise may be a significant issue in certain environments.  I have also tried 
their extended range transmitter, but that has been pretty much unusable 
because of noise.  However, I'll stress that it's the environment, not the 
product.  In the right conditions, the product has performed very well.

Regarding programming, setup, etc. - Ascension setup is fairly 
straightforward and programming is relatively easy.  I have used several 
receivers with no real issues.

One thing that I've been interested in is their LaserBird.  I haven't seen 
the LaserBird, but I've seen demos of similar technologies that were very 
impressive because they are not affected by magnetic noise.

Bottom line - before you invest in a magnetic tracker, make sure that your 
environment is "magnetically friendly", especially if you go with a long 
range tracker.


>From: Andrew Pennington <andrewtp@s ...........>
>Reply-To: "FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY" <ARforum@l ..........>
>To: ARforum@l ..........
>CC: mabht@g ............................ (Dr. Bruce Thomas)
>Subject: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
>Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:30:47 +1030
>
>FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
>
>--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
>   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
>restaurants...& much more!\n\n
>http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Hi All,
>
>Which 6DOF magnetic tracker is best overall for head and hand tracking in
>augmented reality applications out of  the polhemus and ascension trackers?
>The platforms we use are
>
>- PC  with a (Sony glastron) Head Mounted Display
>- wearable PC with HMD.
>- SGI box with HMD
>
>The software will be mostly written inJava (with Java 3D).
>Accuracy and latency are (slightly) more important than range. We wish to
>track the user's head and one hand, however, additionally tracking the 
>other
>hand plus some other object or tracking the head and one hand of a second
>user would be very useful. Any comments  on people's experience with ease 
>of
>programming, callibration, noise, distortion or other good fun would be 
>most
>welcome.
>
>many thanks in advance
>
>cheers,
>Andrew Pennington.
>Wearable Computing Lab
>University of South Australia.
>
>
>______________________________________________________________________
>To unsubscribe, write to ARforum-unsubscribe@l ..........

_________________________________________________________________
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi All,

Which 6DOF magnetic tracker is best overall for head and hand tracking in
augmented reality applications out of  the polhemus and ascension trackers? 
The platforms we use are

- PC  with a (Sony glastron) Head Mounted Display
- wearable PC with HMD.
- SGI box with HMD

The software will be mostly written inJava (with Java 3D). 
Accuracy and latency are (slightly) more important than range. We wish to
track the user's head and one hand, however, additionally tracking the other
hand plus some other object or tracking the head and one hand of a second
user would be very useful. Any comments  on people's experience with ease of
programming, callibration, noise, distortion or other good fun would be most
welcome.

many thanks in advance

cheers,
Andrew Pennington.
Wearable Computing Lab
University of South Australia.


______________________________________________________________________
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I know sometimes that it is not appropriate for a manufacturer to jump into
such forums, but this may help current Flock of Birds users and clear up
misunderstandings regarding magnetic trackers:

Kelly is absolutely right, the environment is critical. But please also be
aware that the effects of these adverse environmental factors can be
lessened greatly, if not eliminated, through certain techniques such as
filtering and changing measurement rates - which is a big advantage that our
DC magnetic systems have over AC magnetic systems. All too often, folks
unfortunately bunch AC and DC "magnetic" systems together when they are
entirely different technologies. DC magnetic technology is about 80% less
susceptible to distortions caused by metal that AC systems. Although
obviously not 100% immune, with the proper environmental precautions and
user techniques, they can actually work pretty well.  We have several
thousands of these working very well in the market.

If you are having problems, it is advisable to contact Ascension tech
support department and describe your environment (for some reason, a lot of
people DON'T do this  - they don't bite!) techsupport@a ................. or
just call 802-893-6657.

As for laserBIRD, we are currently entering into beta tests in April and
expect to have it available for release this summer. New specs include 240HZ
measurement rates and 1mm accuracy.

Greg Erdmann
Ascension Technology



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly Dempski [mailto:kelly_l_dempski@h ..........]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:28 PM
> To: ARforum@l ..........
> Subject: Re: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
>
>
> FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
>   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
> restaurants...& much more!\n\n
> http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> I have been working with the Ascension trackers, but not
> Polhemus.  Here are
> some impressions...
>
> To second Blaire's comment...  My particular environment (metal and
> monitors, etc.) is very unfriendly to the tracker leading to an effective
> range of maybe 2 feet before the noise becomes an issue.  I have noticed
> better performance in different venues, but you should be very aware that
> noise may be a significant issue in certain environments.  I have
> also tried
> their extended range transmitter, but that has been pretty much unusable
> because of noise.  However, I'll stress that it's the
> environment, not the
> product.  In the right conditions, the product has performed very well.
>
> Regarding programming, setup, etc. - Ascension setup is fairly
> straightforward and programming is relatively easy.  I have used several
> receivers with no real issues.
>
> One thing that I've been interested in is their LaserBird.  I
> haven't seen
> the LaserBird, but I've seen demos of similar technologies that were very
> impressive because they are not affected by magnetic noise.
>
> Bottom line - before you invest in a magnetic tracker, make sure
> that your
> environment is "magnetically friendly", especially if you go with a long
> range tracker.
>
>
> >From: Andrew Pennington <andrewtp@s ...........>
> >Reply-To: "FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY" <ARforum@l ..........>
> >To: ARforum@l ..........
> >CC: mabht@g ............................ (Dr. Bruce Thomas)
> >Subject: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
> >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:30:47 +1030
> >
> >FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
> >
> >--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> >   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
> >restaurants...& much more!\n\n
> >http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Hi All,
> >
> >Which 6DOF magnetic tracker is best overall for head and hand tracking in
> >augmented reality applications out of  the polhemus and
> ascension trackers?
> >The platforms we use are
> >
> >- PC  with a (Sony glastron) Head Mounted Display
> >- wearable PC with HMD.
> >- SGI box with HMD
> >
> >The software will be mostly written inJava (with Java 3D).
> >Accuracy and latency are (slightly) more important than range. We wish to
> >track the user's head and one hand, however, additionally tracking the
> >other
> >hand plus some other object or tracking the head and one hand of a second
> >user would be very useful. Any comments  on people's experience
> with ease
> >of
> >programming, callibration, noise, distortion or other good fun would be
> >most
> >welcome.
> >
> >many thanks in advance
> >
> >cheers,
> >Andrew Pennington.
> >Wearable Computing Lab
> >University of South Australia.
> >
> >

>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly Dempski [mailto:kelly_l_dempski@h ..........]
> Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:28 PM
> To: ARforum@l ..........
> Subject: Re: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
>
>
> FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
>   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
> restaurants...& much more!\n\n
> http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> I have been working with the Ascension trackers, but not
> Polhemus.  Here are
> some impressions...
>
> To second Blaire's comment...  My particular environment (metal and
> monitors, etc.) is very unfriendly to the tracker leading to an effective
> range of maybe 2 feet before the noise becomes an issue.  I have noticed
> better performance in different venues, but you should be very aware that
> noise may be a significant issue in certain environments.  I have
> also tried
> their extended range transmitter, but that has been pretty much unusable
> because of noise.  However, I'll stress that it's the
> environment, not the
> product.  In the right conditions, the product has performed very well.
>
> Regarding programming, setup, etc. - Ascension setup is fairly
> straightforward and programming is relatively easy.  I have used several
> receivers with no real issues.
>
> One thing that I've been interested in is their LaserBird.  I
> haven't seen
> the LaserBird, but I've seen demos of similar technologies that were very
> impressive because they are not affected by magnetic noise.
>
> Bottom line - before you invest in a magnetic tracker, make sure
> that your
> environment is "magnetically friendly", especially if you go with a long
> range tracker.
>
>
> >From: Andrew Pennington <andrewtp@s ...........>
> >Reply-To: "FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY" <ARforum@l ..........>
> >To: ARforum@l ..........
> >CC: mabht@g ............................ (Dr. Bruce Thomas)
> >Subject: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
> >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:30:47 +1030
> >
> >FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
> >
> >--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> >   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
> >restaurants...& much more!\n\n
> >http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Hi All,
> >
> >Which 6DOF magnetic tracker is best overall for head and hand tracking in
> >augmented reality applications out of  the polhemus and
> ascension trackers?
> >The platforms we use are
> >
> >- PC  with a (Sony glastron) Head Mounted Display
> >- wearable PC with HMD.
> >- SGI box with HMD
> >
> >The software will be mostly written inJava (with Java 3D).
> >Accuracy and latency are (slightly) more important than range. We wish to
> >track the user's head and one hand, however, additionally tracking the
> >other
> >hand plus some other object or tracking the head and one hand of a second
> >user would be very useful. Any comments  on people's experience
> with ease
> >of
> >programming, callibration, noise, distortion or other good fun would be
> >most
> >welcome.
> >
> >many thanks in advance
> >
> >cheers,
> >Andrew Pennington.
> >Wearable Computing Lab
> >University of South Australia.
> >
> >
> >______________________________________________________________________
> >To unsubscribe, write to ARforum-unsubscribe@l ..........
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to ARforum-unsubscribe@l ..........
>
>


______________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe, write to ARforum-unsubscribe@l ..........

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Hi Greg,

(a) I think it's OK to post informations regarding misunderstandings in
using technology even you are from a company manufacturing and selling the stuff.
No need for excuses.

(b) Furthermore you are right if you state that _bunching together_ AC and
DC trackers is incorrect, because the principles are very different.

BUT

(c) from my point of view and experience neither DC nor AC trackers are
suitable for high-quality tracking in AR environments. You can show pirnciples
and can do some resaerch but if you are trying to exactly overlay real and
virtual contents you have to use optical tracking methods, preferably closed loop
procedures in combination with other (magnetic, acoustic, inertial) trackers
(sensor fusion, hybrid tracking).

(d) There is a paper investigating the differences in using DC and AC
trackers within several (disturbing) environments, which can definitely help in
deciding which system to use in which particular setup:
Mark A. Nixon, Bruce C. McCallum, W. Richard Fright, N. Brent Price: The
Effects of Metals and Interfering Fields on Electromagnetic Trackers. Presence,
Vol. 7, No. 2, April 1998, pp. 204-218

(e) We have made some investigations by ourself within a real environment
with different tracking systems: Polhemus, Ascension, Intersense, Image Guided
Tech. (Flashpoint), ART (Qualisys, DTrack). Unfortunately the report on this
is not public. But one main point is that the magnetic systems can be used in
very particular situations only and with long range transmitters only (LRT,
ERT). E.g. you can use the Ascension MotionStar with an ERT for AR if you are
close enough to the transmitter (within a range of a couple of feet). This
could work and is worth to try!

(f) As far as I know some guys at Fraunhofer IGD and Vienna University are
using magnetic trackers in AR setups with success. Perhaps it is advisable to
contact them to figure out the details.


Hope this helps.
Holger




> FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
> 
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
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>    Tell your friends -- forward this message!
> 
> http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2144
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> I know sometimes that it is not appropriate for a manufacturer to jump
> into
> such forums, but this may help current Flock of Birds users and clear up
> misunderstandings regarding magnetic trackers:
> 
> Kelly is absolutely right, the environment is critical. But please also be
> aware that the effects of these adverse environmental factors can be
> lessened greatly, if not eliminated, through certain techniques such as
> filtering and changing measurement rates - which is a big advantage that
> our
> DC magnetic systems have over AC magnetic systems. All too often, folks
> unfortunately bunch AC and DC "magnetic" systems together when they are
> entirely different technologies. DC magnetic technology is about 80% less
> susceptible to distortions caused by metal that AC systems. Although
> obviously not 100% immune, with the proper environmental precautions and
> user techniques, they can actually work pretty well.  We have several
> thousands of these working very well in the market.
> 
> If you are having problems, it is advisable to contact Ascension tech
> support department and describe your environment (for some reason, a lot
> of
> people DON'T do this  - they don't bite!) techsupport@a .................
> or
> just call 802-893-6657.
> 
> As for laserBIRD, we are currently entering into beta tests in April and
> expect to have it available for release this summer. New specs include
> 240HZ
> measurement rates and 1mm accuracy.
> 
> Greg Erdmann
> Ascension Technology
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kelly Dempski [mailto:kelly_l_dempski@h ..........]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:28 PM
> > To: ARforum@l ..........
> > Subject: Re: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
> >
> >
> > FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
> >
> > --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> >   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
> > restaurants...& much more!\n\n
> > http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > I have been working with the Ascension trackers, but not
> > Polhemus.  Here are
> > some impressions...
> >
> > To second Blaire's comment...  My particular environment (metal and
> > monitors, etc.) is very unfriendly to the tracker leading to an
> effective
> > range of maybe 2 feet before the noise becomes an issue.  I have noticed
> > better performance in different venues, but you should be very aware
> that
> > noise may be a significant issue in certain environments.  I have
> > also tried
> > their extended range transmitter, but that has been pretty much unusable
> > because of noise.  However, I'll stress that it's the
> > environment, not the
> > product.  In the right conditions, the product has performed very well.
> >
> > Regarding programming, setup, etc. - Ascension setup is fairly
> > straightforward and programming is relatively easy.  I have used several
> > receivers with no real issues.
> >
> > One thing that I've been interested in is their LaserBird.  I
> > haven't seen
> > the LaserBird, but I've seen demos of similar technologies that were
> very
> > impressive because they are not affected by magnetic noise.
> >
> > Bottom line - before you invest in a magnetic tracker, make sure
> > that your
> > environment is "magnetically friendly", especially if you go with a long
> > range tracker.
> >
> >
> > >From: Andrew Pennington <andrewtp@s ...........>
> > >Reply-To: "FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY"
> <ARforum@l ..........>
> > >To: ARforum@l ..........
> > >CC: mabht@g ............................ (Dr. Bruce Thomas)
> > >Subject: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
> > >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:30:47 +1030
> > >
> > >FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
> > >
> > >--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> > >   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
> > >restaurants...& much more!\n\n
> > >http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Hi All,
> > >
> > >Which 6DOF magnetic tracker is best overall for head and hand tracking
> in
> > >augmented reality applications out of  the polhemus and
> > ascension trackers?
> > >The platforms we use are
> > >
> > >- PC  with a (Sony glastron) Head Mounted Display
> > >- wearable PC with HMD.
> > >- SGI box with HMD
> > >
> > >The software will be mostly written inJava (with Java 3D).
> > >Accuracy and latency are (slightly) more important than range. We wish
> to
> > >track the user's head and one hand, however, additionally tracking the
> > >other
> > >hand plus some other object or tracking the head and one hand of a
> second
> > >user would be very useful. Any comments  on people's experience
> > with ease
> > >of
> > >programming, callibration, noise, distortion or other good fun would be
> > >most
> > >welcome.
> > >
> > >many thanks in advance
> > >
> > >cheers,
> > >Andrew Pennington.
> > >Wearable Computing Lab
> > >University of South Australia.
> > >
> > >
> 
> >
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kelly Dempski [mailto:kelly_l_dempski@h ..........]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:28 PM
> > To: ARforum@l ..........
> > Subject: Re: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
> >
> >
> > FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
> >
> > --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> >   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
> > restaurants...& much more!\n\n
> > http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi Andrew,
> >
> > I have been working with the Ascension trackers, but not
> > Polhemus.  Here are
> > some impressions...
> >
> > To second Blaire's comment...  My particular environment (metal and
> > monitors, etc.) is very unfriendly to the tracker leading to an
> effective
> > range of maybe 2 feet before the noise becomes an issue.  I have noticed
> > better performance in different venues, but you should be very aware
> that
> > noise may be a significant issue in certain environments.  I have
> > also tried
> > their extended range transmitter, but that has been pretty much unusable
> > because of noise.  However, I'll stress that it's the
> > environment, not the
> > product.  In the right conditions, the product has performed very well.
> >
> > Regarding programming, setup, etc. - Ascension setup is fairly
> > straightforward and programming is relatively easy.  I have used several
> > receivers with no real issues.
> >
> > One thing that I've been interested in is their LaserBird.  I
> > haven't seen
> > the LaserBird, but I've seen demos of similar technologies that were
> very
> > impressive because they are not affected by magnetic noise.
> >
> > Bottom line - before you invest in a magnetic tracker, make sure
> > that your
> > environment is "magnetically friendly", especially if you go with a long
> > range tracker.
> >
> >
> > >From: Andrew Pennington <andrewtp@s ...........>
> > >Reply-To: "FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY"
> <ARforum@l ..........>
> > >To: ARforum@l ..........
> > >CC: mabht@g ............................ (Dr. Bruce Thomas)
> > >Subject: [ARforum] Polhemus and Ascension experience anyone?
> > >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:30:47 +1030
> > >
> > >FORUM ON AUGMENTED AND VIRTUAL REALITY
> > >
> > >--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> > >   Get fast, easy info by phone: Call 800-555-TELL.\nNews, weather,
> > >restaurants...& much more!\n\n
> > >http://on.linkexchange.com/?ATID=27&AID=2143
> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Hi All,
> > >
> > >Which 6DOF magnetic tracker is best overall for head and hand tracking
> in
> > >augmented reality applications out of  the polhemus and
> > ascension trackers?
> > >The platforms we use are
> > >
> > >- PC  with a (Sony glastron) Head Mounted Display
> > >- wearable PC with HMD.
> > >- SGI box with HMD
> > >
> > >The software will be mostly written inJava (with Java 3D).
> > >Accuracy and latency are (slightly) more important than range. We wish
> to
> > >track the user's head and one hand, however, additionally tracking the
> > >other
> > >hand plus some other object or tracking the head and one hand of a
> second
> > >user would be very useful. Any comments  on people's experience
> > with ease
> > >of
> > >programming, callibration, noise, distortion or other good fun would be
> > >most
> > >welcome.
> > >
> > >many thanks in advance
> > >
> > >cheers,
> > >Andrew Pennington.
> > >Wearable Computing Lab
> > >University of South Australia.
> > >
> > >
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-- 
Holger Regenbrecht
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