[ARFORUM] A wearable AR core?

Dear all,

it seems clear that most of us that do mobile AR
spend quite some time finding and assembling 
off-the-shelf hardware instead of focusing on the
applications.

I would like to know if we can open a discussion 
to try to find out what will need to be included
in a wearable computer to make it attractive 
enough to be a core component of our AR systems.
"If" we can determine some common specifications
we may be able to present them to hardware 
manufacturers along with some example of killer
apps that this would enable and "may be" they
would be then interested to include our wish
in their next generation hardware.  

I believe that it is necessary that we do not diverge
too much in such discussions by requiring things that
are very specific to our projects rather than common
to almost all of us. May be we can do so by 
justifying why it necessary and benefit all of us.
We could also, make a list of things and vote for
each things so that we can proritize the list of
wishes. Please let me know your opinions on
that. 

As far as I am concerned, things I would like to see
on a wearable are:

-VGA and NTSC connectors instead of proprietory
 hardware. WHY? because it allows us to play
 with different displays, NTSC or VGA instead
 of being stuck with the manufacturer one.

-stereo able graphics hardware. WHY? Because
 stereo is the only way to get closer to register
 3D graphics correctly with the real world when
 using binocular displays.

I hope this will start a lively discussion

Thanks for reading
Sincerely 

Yohan 

___________________________________________

Yohan Baillot
VRLab / Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue SE           ______ 
Code 5580, Room 119A             /\           \
Washington DC 20375              /   \           \
Phone (202) 404 7801             /      \______\ 
Mobile (703) 732 5679            \       /           /
Fax (202) 404 1122                  \   /           /
baillot@a ...............               \/_____  /

http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/people/baillot/
http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/vrlab/projects/BARS/BARS.html
___________________________________________
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From:	yohan baillot <baillot@a ...............>	Received:	Nov 1, 2001
To	arforum@t .........
Subject:	[ARFORUM] A wearable AR core?
Dear all, it seems clear that most of us that do mobile AR spend quite some time finding and assembling off-the-shelf hardware instead of focusing on the applications. I would like to know if we can open a discussion to try to find out what will need to be included in a wearable computer to make it attractive enough to be a core component of our AR systems. "If" we can determine some common specifications we may be able to present them to hardware manufacturers along with some example of killer apps that this would enable and "may be" they would be then interested to include our wish in their next generation hardware. I believe that it is necessary that we do not diverge too much in such discussions by requiring things that are very specific to our projects rather than common to almost all of us. May be we can do so by justifying why it necessary and benefit all of us. We could also, make a list of things and vote for each things so that we can proritize the list of wishes. Please let me know your opinions on that. As far as I am concerned, things I would like to see on a wearable are: -VGA and NTSC connectors instead of proprietory hardware. WHY? because it allows us to play with different displays, NTSC or VGA instead of being stuck with the manufacturer one. -stereo able graphics hardware. WHY? Because stereo is the only way to get closer to register 3D graphics correctly with the real world when using binocular displays. I hope this will start a lively discussion Thanks for reading Sincerely Yohan ___________________________________________ Yohan Baillot VRLab / Naval Research Laboratory 4555 Overlook Avenue SE ______ Code 5580, Room 119A /\ \ Washington DC 20375 / \ \ Phone (202) 404 7801 / \______\ Mobile (703) 732 5679 \ / / Fax (202) 404 1122 \ / / baillot@a ............... \/_____ / http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/people/baillot/ http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/vrlab/projects/BARS/BARS.html ___________________________________________ ==^================================================================ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84Ao5.a9zIQj Or send an email To: arforum-unsubscribe@t ......... This email was sent to: webmaster@e ............ T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================ ------=extPart_000_0224_01C1630E.6B613830--

From:	yohan baillot <baillot@a ...............>	Received:	Nov 2, 2001
To	"'arforum@t .........'" <arforum@t .........>
Subject:	RE: [ARFORUM] A wearable AR core?
Dear Bruce, > 2) For video, lets not forget PAL. Not everyone uses NTSC :) that's right, but I guess it will depend were the product is sold. Sorry ! Yohan > -- > Assoc. Prof. Bruce H. Thomas Ph.D. > Director Wearable Computer Lab > School of Computer and Information Science > The University of South Australia > Mawson Lakes, SA 5095, Australia > phone: +61 8 8302 3464 > fax: +61 8 8302 3381 > Bruce.Thomas@u ........... > http://www.cis.unisa.edu.au/people/bht <http://www.cis.unisa.edu.au/people/bht> > > > -----Original Message----- > From: yohan baillot [mailto:baillot@a ...............] > Sent: Friday, 2 November 2001 2:20 PM > To: arforum@t ......... > Subject: [ARFORUM] A wearable AR core? > > > Dear all, > > it seems clear that most of us that do mobile AR > spend quite some time finding and assembling > off-the-shelf hardware instead of focusing on the > applications. > > I would like to know if we can open a discussion > to try to find out what will need to be included > in a wearable computer to make it attractive > enough to be a core component of our AR systems. > "If" we can determine some common specifications > we may be able to present them to hardware > manufacturers along with some example of killer > apps that this would enable and "may be" they > would be then interested to include our wish > in their next generation hardware. > > I believe that it is necessary that we do not diverge > too much in such discussions by requiring things that > are very specific to our projects rather than common > to almost all of us. May be we can do so by > justifying why it necessary and benefit all of us. > We could also, make a list of things and vote for > each things so that we can proritize the list of > wishes. Please let me know your opinions on > that. > > As far as I am concerned, things I would like to see > on a wearable are: > > -VGA and NTSC connectors instead of proprietory > hardware. WHY? because it allows us to play > with different displays, NTSC or VGA instead > of being stuck with the manufacturer one. > > -stereo able graphics hardware. WHY? Because > stereo is the only way to get closer to register > 3D graphics correctly with the real world when > using binocular displays. > > I hope this will start a lively discussion > > Thanks for reading > Sincerely > > Yohan > > ___________________________________________ > > Yohan Baillot > VRLab / Naval Research Laboratory > 4555 Overlook Avenue SE ______ > Code 5580, Room 119A /\ \ > Washington DC 20375 / \ \ > Phone (202) 404 7801 / \______\ > Mobile (703) 732 5679 \ / / > Fax (202) 404 1122 \ / / > baillot@a ............... <mailto:baillot@a ...............> > \/_____ / > > http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/people/baillot/ > <http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/people/baillot/> > http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/vrlab/projects/BARS/BARS.html > <http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/vrlab/projects/BARS/BARS.html> > ___________________________________________ > ------=_NextPart_000_0224_01C1630E.6B613830-- > > > _______________________________________________________________________ Yohan BAILLOT Virtual Reality Laboratory, Advanced Information Technology (Code 5580), Naval Research Laboratory, 4555 Overlook Avenue SW, Washington, DC 20375-5337 Email : baillot@a ............... Work : (202) 404 7801 Home : (703) 566 3684 Cell : (703) 732 5679 Fax : (202) 767 1122 Web : http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/vrlab/projects/BARS/BARS.html _______________________________________________________________________ ==^================================================================ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84Ao5.a9zIQj Or send an email To: arforum-unsubscribe@t ......... This email was sent to: webmaster@e ............ T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================

From:	yohan baillot <baillot@a ...............>	Received:	Nov 2, 2001
To	arforum@t .........
Subject:	Re: [ARFORUM] A wearable AR core?
Hello Ismo, I went on the page and could not see the VRML models because I need some kind of ActiveX pluggin apparently. Could you let me know where I can find it? Very interesting info you sent though. For the wearable AR core, would video overlay hardware able to combine in real time the video input with the graphical output of the computer be useful to the people doing video AR? thanks Yohan ___________________________________________ Yohan Baillot VRLab / Naval Research Laboratory 4555 Overlook Avenue SE ______ Code 5580, Room 119A /\ \ Washington DC 20375 / \ \ Phone (202) 404 7801 / \______\ Mobile (703) 732 5679 \ / / Fax (202) 404 1122 \ / / baillot@a ............... \/_____ / http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/people/baillot/ http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/vrlab/projects/BARS/BARS.html ___________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: Ismo Rakkolainen To: arforum@t ......... Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: [ARFORUM] Mobile 3D graphics anyone? Bruce Thomas wrote: I know laptops are starting have them, but lets see 3D graphics in a smaller form factor computer. yohan baillot wrote: it seems clear that most of us that do mobile AR spend quite some time finding and assembling off-the-shelf hardware instead of focusing on the applications. "If" we can determine some common specifications we may be able to present them to hardware manufacturers along with some example of killer apps that this would enable and "may be" they would be then interested to include our wish in their next generation hardware. It would be very interesting to have powerful 3D graphics running on PDAs, cell phones, and other (really) mobile appliances, and attach a HMD to them. This has been my research interest for some time, and in our TreD-project we have implemented both a wired and mobile 3D City Guide. The interface includes a map, a service database search, and the 3D model of a city. The mobile (non-HMD) thing is not public, but the wired version can be viewed at http://www.uta.fi/hyper/projektit/tred/. The mobile version is basically a laptop with GPS and compass. Such systems may be available for PDAs after some years. The PDAs may use WLAN, UMTS, or such fast wireless networks. We have also made a usability study with real people walking on streets, and they preferred the 3D visualization over the 2D map. There are also some published papers on the system and usability studies. I am interested to collect relevant papers, companies, initiatives, etc. on mobile 3D graphics and related issues. In addition to many AR trials, I am aware of the ones given below. Does anybody know some more? I would be grateful. Japanese J-Phone has announced that they will bring a 3D-capable cell phone to market in 2002, http://www.3gnewsroom.com/3g_news/jun_01/news_0740.shtml. There is a 3D engine for EPOC platform, an implementation of OpenGL 3D rendering for the Palm platform, and Cortona CE VRML browser for Pocket PC. Springtoys Oy and Fathammer Ltd. are making 3D games for cell phones and PDAs. There is also a whitepaper about mobile 3D graphics devices, http://www.hybrid.fi/whitepaper. NeoMagic has announced the 3D-capable MiMagic chipset for handheld Internet appliances. Arcus Software Oy produces 3D maps for web browsers and wireless devices, and develops software solutions for 3D mapping process. G-cluster is providing another way to deliver 3D graphics into PDA devices. It renders 3D games in a server and delivers the downscaled screen of a 3D game over a WLAN hotspot to a PDA device. This enables wireless gaming with PDAs. Wireless World Research Forum, http://www.wireless-world-research.org/, is developing 4G mobile technology, applications, and visions. Some work and ideas in the forum have been presented which use 3D graphics, virtual reality, and augmented reality. Krikke, J., Graphics applications over the wireless Web: Japan sets the pace. IEEE Computer Graphics and Applications, Vol. 21, No. 3, May/Jun 2001, pp. 9-15. is a good intro to wireless issues. Ismo Rakkolainen, ira@c ........, www.cs.tut.fi/~ira/ Tampere University of Technology Finland ==^================================================================ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84Ao5.a9zIQj Or send an email To: arforum-unsubscribe@t ......... This email was sent to: webmaster@e ............ T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================ ------=extPart_000_0062_01C1639A.6F41C820--

From:	Bruce Thomas <bruce.thomas@u ...........>	Received:	Nov 2, 2001
To	"'arforum@t .........'" <arforum@t .........>
Subject:	RE: [ARFORUM] A wearable AR core?
Afternoon Campers: A few more ideas to kick around 1) I would like to see real 3D graphics. I know laptops are starting have them, but lets see 3D graphics in a smaller form factor computer. 2) For video, lets not forget PAL. Not everyone uses NTSC :) 3) I would like the housings of the components to have attachment points. The control box for the Glasstrons do not even have a clip for a belt. -- Assoc. Prof. Bruce H. Thomas Ph.D. Director Wearable Computer Lab School of Computer and Information Science The University of South Australia Mawson Lakes, SA 5095, Australia phone: +61 8 8302 3464 fax: +61 8 8302 3381 Bruce.Thomas@u ........... http://www.cis.unisa.edu.au/people/bht -----Original Message----- From: yohan baillot [mailto:baillot@a ...............] Sent: Friday, 2 November 2001 2:20 PM To: arforum@t ......... Subject: [ARFORUM] A wearable AR core? Dear all, it seems clear that most of us that do mobile AR spend quite some time finding and assembling off-the-shelf hardware instead of focusing on the applications. I would like to know if we can open a discussion to try to find out what will need to be included in a wearable computer to make it attractive enough to be a core component of our AR systems. "If" we can determine some common specifications we may be able to present them to hardware manufacturers along with some example of killer apps that this would enable and "may be" they would be then interested to include our wish in their next generation hardware. I believe that it is necessary that we do not diverge too much in such discussions by requiring things that are very specific to our projects rather than common to almost all of us. May be we can do so by justifying why it necessary and benefit all of us. We could also, make a list of things and vote for each things so that we can proritize the list of wishes. Please let me know your opinions on that. As far as I am concerned, things I would like to see on a wearable are: -VGA and NTSC connectors instead of proprietory hardware. WHY? because it allows us to play with different displays, NTSC or VGA instead of being stuck with the manufacturer one. -stereo able graphics hardware. WHY? Because stereo is the only way to get closer to register 3D graphics correctly with the real world when using binocular displays. I hope this will start a lively discussion Thanks for reading Sincerely Yohan ___________________________________________ Yohan Baillot VRLab / Naval Research Laboratory 4555 Overlook Avenue SE ______ Code 5580, Room 119A /\ \ Washington DC 20375 / \ \ Phone (202) 404 7801 / \______\ Mobile (703) 732 5679 \ / / Fax (202) 404 1122 \ / / baillot@a ............... \/_____ / http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/people/baillot/ http://ait.nrl.navy.mil/vrlab/projects/BARS/BARS.html ___________________________________________ ------=_NextPart_000_0224_01C1630E.6B613830-- ==^================================================================ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84Ao5.a9zIQj Or send an email To: arforum-unsubscribe@t ......... This email was sent to: webmaster@e ............ T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================

From:	Wayne Piekarski <wayne@c ..............>	Received:	Nov 20, 2001
To	arforum@t .........
Subject:	RE: [ARFORUM] A wearable AR core?
Yohan Baillot wrote: > > For the wearable AR core, would video overlay hardware > able to combine in real time the video input with the > graphical output of the computer be useful to the > people doing video AR? > > thanks > > Yohan I don't think this would be too useful, as the video and HMD usually have different fields of view, as well as various distortions, and so I correct for these using an OpenGL video texture map so that any kind of HMD and video camera lens can be used that is suitable. With my Tinmith system, I use a wider fov camera to track my hands but only the suitable part of the video is shown in the display, appropriately warped. Now 3D hardware which supported video capture from firewire or PAL/NTSC straight into texture ram would be infinitely more cool!!!! regards, Wayne ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wayne Piekarski - PhD Student / Lecturer Phone: +61-8-8302-3669 Advanced Computing Research Centre Fax: +61-8-8302-3381 University of South Australia Mobile: 0407-395-889 Internet: wayne@t .......... Research & Development Manager http://www.tinmith.net SE Network Access Pty Ltd ==^================================================================ This email was sent to: webmaster@e ............ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84Ao5.a9zIQj Or send an email to: arforum-unsubscribe@t ......... T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================

From:	Dirk Reiners <reiners@i .........>	Received:	Nov 28, 2001
To	arforum@t .........
Subject:	Re: [ARFORUM] A wearable AR core?
On Nov 28, 9:40am, Wayne Piekarski wrote: > Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:21:31 -0500 > From: "yohan baillot" <baillot@a ...............> > Subject: Re: [ARFORUM] A wearable AR core? > > > Now 3D hardware which supported video capture from firewire or PAL/NTSC > > straight into texture ram would be infinitely more cool!!!! > > this will be usefull too. Is this not the way it does work as of now? > (what I mean is is texture memory part of the framebuffer?). Right now, the CPU reads the video in via Firewire or USB or whatever, does the conversions required to RGB space if the camera does not do it (most do not) and then it has to be sent to the texture RAM in the video card. This all takes time and wastes the CPU, especially for big frames. I saw a Reality Monster II a while back which had a TV-in built into the video card, all you had to do was draw polygons and it would map the TV signal straight to it. The CPU didn't even know it was there, it was just done internally in the hardware. This was very sweet :) >-- End of excerpt from Wayne Piekarski Similar things should be possible in the PC space, too. AFAIK the standard TV decoders use DMA across PCI directly into the framebuffer. But to make a straight connection from Firewire to Texture the video and graphics people would have to work together, and for the niche market AR I don't see that happening. This is more difficult than you might think initially, though, as you have to make sure that everything is synchronized and the texture is not used while it's being updated. Furthermore you have to be sure that none of the OpenGL pixel pipeline is active, if the graphics card can't do it on the fly. Sideline: in later hardware sgi didn't support the direct to ttexture path any more. Apparently it was too much hassle... ;) Result: it might be possible to do direct copy from video to texture on the PC, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. Maybe Khronos can make that happen (www.khronos.org), but I wouldn't hold my breath for that either. Dirk -- -- -- Dirk Reiners OpenSG Forum dirk@o ......... -- The OpenSG Open Source Scenegraph: http://www.opensg.org -- Announcements: http://lists.sf.net/lists/listinfo/opensg-announce ==^================================================================ This email was sent to: webmaster@e ............ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84Ao5.a9zIQj Or send an email to: arforum-unsubscribe@t ......... T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================