Indeed, it's a good idea to have tools for designers;  we have been 
instrumenting Director for that purpose.  We use it in the class I 
teach on "AR Design" (co-taught by me, in CS, and Jay Bolter, in New 
Media Design).

I think MAX/MSP is not a good environment for that, though;  I've been 
working with folks on a project that uses it, and it's not what I would 
necessarily call "approachable" for a novice non-programmer.

However, the idea of a data-flow, box-and-glue kind of model for AR is 
interesting.



On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:46 AM, Adrian David Cheok wrote:

> Dear Rod
>
> It's a great idea!
>
> There is the JARtoolkit which Christian and his gang have written in 
> the
> C-LAB.
>
> http://www.c-lab.de/jartoolkit/
>
> That might be a good start to make reference to :)
>
> Adrian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-artoolkit@h ..................
> [mailto:owner-artoolkit@h ..................] On Behalf Of Rodney Berry
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:18 PM
> To: ARToolkit Mailing list
> Subject: ARToolkit/Toolkit?
>
>
> Is anyone interested in trying to make a ARToolkit/Toolkit to allow
> non-programmers to build their own AR set-ups?
>
> There are a number of graphical programming language type environments
> such as MAX/MSP or PD for example (mainly used for music) that have
> objects for communicating via sockets. Maybe we could use something 
> like
>
> this via the script nodes in VRML to talk directly to the VRML objects
> associated with the tracking markers.
>
> I am doing this to a limited extent using PD. I imagine that a small
> java thing in between that can open up a socket to send UDP packets 
> etc.
>
> would open up the script nodes for exploitation by the more
> compile-a-phobic of us.
>
> That way a new user could choose between a graphical connect-the-boxes
> approach or get into a more hard-core scripting language ... or stop
> being a sissy and learn to write C++.
>
> The attached image is a screen shot of PD, a free program, in this case
> using a set of open gl libraries called GEM to manipulate images and 3d
> shapes etc.
>
> anyone???   (*o*)
>
> Rod.

Peter Anders (ptr@m ............) wrote:

> I agree and suggest that the panel be about the uses to which such
> tools may be put --by non programmers :-)

I second (third?) this. Programming isn't my niche, but I've devoted
a lot of time w/ programmer friends to coming up with AR concepts
and implementations. I'm a designer and conceptualizer who is
excited about AR, and would love to network with people who share my
non-programmer perspective.

Ryan

-- 
Ryan Singer :: http://feltpresence.com

"The blind are in power and they've declared it a crime to see
 colors."
 

I saw a DLL out there by someone, but it still seems a little new. If
someone makes a stable DLL, I would like to try my hand at some AR
programming. I've been monitoring this email list for years and dabbled
briefly with an earlier version of ARToolKit.  I just so busy that
making it to Siggraph has been prohibitive.

Earl Claus
http://www.InternetRemoteBase.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Rodney Berry [mailto:rodney@a ........] 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:18 AM
To: ARToolkit Mailing list
Subject: ARToolkit/Toolkit?


Is anyone interested in trying to make a ARToolkit/Toolkit to allow 
non-programmers to build their own AR set-ups?

There are a number of graphical programming language type environments 
such as MAX/MSP or PD for example (mainly used for music) that have 
objects for communicating via sockets. Maybe we could use something like

this via the script nodes in VRML to talk directly to the VRML objects 
associated with the tracking markers.

I am doing this to a limited extent using PD. I imagine that a small 
java thing in between that can open up a socket to send UDP packets etc.

would open up the script nodes for exploitation by the more 
compile-a-phobic of us.

That way a new user could choose between a graphical connect-the-boxes 
approach or get into a more hard-core scripting language ... or stop 
being a sissy and learn to write C++.

The attached image is a screen shot of PD, a free program, in this case 
using a set of open gl libraries called GEM to manipulate images and 3d 
shapes etc.

anyone???   (*o*)

Rod.
 

As a web developer and one of those guys pushing the limits of
Macromedia Flash, I have no idea what MAX/MSP is.  IF the best of the AR
community works with Macromedia to have connectors to Flash, the rest of
us could start changing the face of the Web to the next obvious
generation of the Internet... AR-enabled websites.

This is why I've monitored this email list for these years.  I have
waited a long time to see this particular email thread occur.  

Earl Claus

-----Original Message-----
From: Blair MacIntyre [mailto:blair@c ............] 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 7:23 AM
To: Adrian David Cheok
Cc: 'ARToolkit Mailing list'
Subject: Re: ARToolkit/Toolkit?


Indeed, it's a good idea to have tools for designers;  we have been 
instrumenting Director for that purpose.  We use it in the class I 
teach on "AR Design" (co-taught by me, in CS, and Jay Bolter, in New 
Media Design).

I think MAX/MSP is not a good environment for that, though;  I've been 
working with folks on a project that uses it, and it's not what I would 
necessarily call "approachable" for a novice non-programmer.

However, the idea of a data-flow, box-and-glue kind of model for AR is 
interesting.



On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:46 AM, Adrian David Cheok wrote:

> Dear Rod
>
> It's a great idea!
>
> There is the JARtoolkit which Christian and his gang have written in 
> the C-LAB.
>
> http://www.c-lab.de/jartoolkit/
>
> That might be a good start to make reference to :)
>
> Adrian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-artoolkit@h ..................
> [mailto:owner-artoolkit@h ..................] On Behalf Of Rodney Berry
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:18 PM
> To: ARToolkit Mailing list
> Subject: ARToolkit/Toolkit?
>
>
> Is anyone interested in trying to make a ARToolkit/Toolkit to allow
> non-programmers to build their own AR set-ups?
>
> There are a number of graphical programming language type environments
> such as MAX/MSP or PD for example (mainly used for music) that have 
> objects for communicating via sockets. Maybe we could use something 
> like
>
> this via the script nodes in VRML to talk directly to the VRML objects
> associated with the tracking markers.
>
> I am doing this to a limited extent using PD. I imagine that a small
> java thing in between that can open up a socket to send UDP packets 
> etc.
>
> would open up the script nodes for exploitation by the more
> compile-a-phobic of us.
>
> That way a new user could choose between a graphical connect-the-boxes
> approach or get into a more hard-core scripting language ... or stop 
> being a sissy and learn to write C++.
>
> The attached image is a screen shot of PD, a free program, in this
> case using a set of open gl libraries called GEM to manipulate images 
> and 3d shapes etc.
>
> anyone???   (*o*)
>
> Rod.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------040008030807010902050308
Content-Type: 
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Rodney et al!

Your suggestion of having a siggraph session on AR is very interesting -
especially in the light of your thoughts on making a non-programmer version
of ARToolkit.  Blair notes that ARToolkit may be too narrow a focus for a
session. I agree and suggest that the panel be about the uses to which such
tools may be put --by non programmers :-)

I speak from personal experience and enthusiasm. My current doctoral thesis
is on architectural applications of AR called cybrids. I am not a programmer,
but a designer and architect.  I have found collaborations with computer
scientists/programmers to be very fruitful and exciting. Recently, for
instance I met with Hirokazu Kato in Hiroshima and we have since exchanged
some  intriguing files regarding cybrids. It has been great working with him
even on such an initial basis.

As an officer of ISEA (the International Society for Electronic Arts) I know
others in the fine arts, performance, music who are exploring AR - or wish to
- in other venues. The dialog between artists, scientists and technologists
has always been fascinating. Perhaps this might be a topic for a session vis
a vis AR and the present listserve?

Ptr.

Rodney Berry wrote:

> Is anyone interested in trying to make a ARToolkit/Toolkit to allow
> non-programmers to build their own AR set-ups?
>
> There are a number of graphical programming language type environments
> such as MAX/MSP or PD for example (mainly used for music) that have
> objects for communicating via sockets. Maybe we could use something like
> this via the script nodes in VRML to talk directly to the VRML objects
> associated with the tracking markers.
>
> I am doing this to a limited extent using PD. I imagine that a small
> java thing in between that can open up a socket to send UDP packets etc.
> would open up the script nodes for exploitation by the more
> compile-a-phobic of us.
>
> That way a new user could choose between a graphical connect-the-boxes
> approach or get into a more hard-core scripting language ... or stop
> being a sissy and learn to write C++.
>
> The attached image is a screen shot of PD, a free program, in this case
> using a set of open gl libraries called GEM to manipulate images and 3d
> shapes etc.
>
> anyone???   (*o*)
>
> Rod.
>
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  [Image]

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--------------040008030807010902050308--

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------030307030308020201080709
Content-Type: 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Is anyone interested in trying to make a ARToolkit/Toolkit to allow 
non-programmers to build their own AR set-ups?

There are a number of graphical programming language type environments 
such as MAX/MSP or PD for example (mainly used for music) that have 
objects for communicating via sockets. Maybe we could use something like 
this via the script nodes in VRML to talk directly to the VRML objects 
associated with the tracking markers.

I am doing this to a limited extent using PD. I imagine that a small 
java thing in between that can open up a socket to send UDP packets etc. 
would open up the script nodes for exploitation by the more 
compile-a-phobic of us.

That way a new user could choose between a graphical connect-the-boxes 
approach or get into a more hard-core scripting language ... or stop 
being a sissy and learn to write C++.

The attached image is a screen shot of PD, a free program, in this case 
using a set of open gl libraries called GEM to manipulate images and 3d 
shapes etc.

anyone???   (*o*)

Rod.

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--------------030307030308020201080709--

Dear Rod

It's a great idea! 

There is the JARtoolkit which Christian and his gang have written in the
C-LAB.

http://www.c-lab.de/jartoolkit/

That might be a good start to make reference to :)

Adrian


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-artoolkit@h ..................
[mailto:owner-artoolkit@h ..................] On Behalf Of Rodney Berry
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:18 PM
To: ARToolkit Mailing list
Subject: ARToolkit/Toolkit?


Is anyone interested in trying to make a ARToolkit/Toolkit to allow 
non-programmers to build their own AR set-ups?

There are a number of graphical programming language type environments 
such as MAX/MSP or PD for example (mainly used for music) that have 
objects for communicating via sockets. Maybe we could use something like

this via the script nodes in VRML to talk directly to the VRML objects 
associated with the tracking markers.

I am doing this to a limited extent using PD. I imagine that a small 
java thing in between that can open up a socket to send UDP packets etc.

would open up the script nodes for exploitation by the more 
compile-a-phobic of us.

That way a new user could choose between a graphical connect-the-boxes 
approach or get into a more hard-core scripting language ... or stop 
being a sissy and learn to write C++.

The attached image is a screen shot of PD, a free program, in this case 
using a set of open gl libraries called GEM to manipulate images and 3d 
shapes etc.

anyone???   (*o*)

Rod.

 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------070808030402090901070106
Content-Type: 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hello all,

I just read the ongoing discussion about a software for non-programmers
for AR design/authoring. I am working  in a European research project and
we actually developped an AR authoring program. It is a Windows based
program
that is able to load VRML objects and bind these to markers. One can choose
camera settings and parameters. It is also possible to augment an mpeg-video
instead of a live video. As it is quite big (about 15-20MB)I cannot send it
in an e-mail. We also included another marker tracking library - but that is
a prototype only yet.

If anyone is interested I can send a few screenshots and more information.

cheers
pablo

-------------------------__________
Pablo Gussmann          /\         \
Corporate Technology   /  \         \
Production Processes  /    \ SIEMENS \
                     /    _ \         \
CT PP6              / | /|_| \_________\
Virtual Engineering \ |/ |\  /         /
                     \      / __  __  /
Otto-Hahn Ring 6      \    / __/ / / /
81739 Munich Germany   \  / __/ /_/ /
+49(0)89 636 46280      \/_________/
                



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Dear all,

more thoughts about the ARToolkit/toolkit idea...

Here is a summary of what I would like to try and do. (Remember I am 
speaking as a non-programmer so jump in and correct anything I get wrong 
please).

first some observations...

- when most of us use vrml, we tend to make the models and animate them 
in something like Maya, 3DSMAX etc., then we export them as vrml and 
load them into the artoolkit. A lot of behavioural stuff is done (and 
re-done by individuals hacking with the toolkit for each thing they want 
  to do.

- not many of us have taken a good look at what vrml can do. It is 
tedious to make a whole complex object but the use of the particular 
nodes that affect behaviour could be figured out by a beginner with 
patience and a bit of help from a good book (or geek friend).

... so my basic sketchy plan is this:

1. Make a generic application that handles the display and various 
sensors etc. using the ARToolkit itself. It would output basic info such 
as how far each marker is from every other one, their positions and 
orientations etc.

2. if all the VRML2 nodes supposedly supported by OpenVRML are 
accessible to the ARToolkit, then it should be possible to sit a small 
java application (or hardwire it into the main application somehow.) 
that simply opens up a socket and relays info defined in the VRML 
model's Script node to whatever is listening on the other end of the 
socket. It would also be listening on the same numbered port for 
incoming TCP or UDP messages from outside. Each user effectively writes 
their own protocol so, for beginners their should be a generic template 
that they can then modify for their own purposes.

3. special applications or plu-gins would be made for say, Macromedia 
Director/flash, PD, MAX-MSP, Python or whatever.

4. The VRML script node is described pretty well here (thanks to Justin 
Couch):
http://www.usv.ro/docm/calculatoare/JAVA/Java%20Unleashed,%20Second%20Edition/ch36.htm#TheVRMLScriptNode

...and the way java picks it up and uses it in the form of a script class...
http://www.usv.ro/docm/calculatoare/JAVA/Java%20Unleashed,%20Second%20Edition/ch36.htm#IntegratingJavaScriptswithVRML

The VRML script node looks like this:
Script {
    	 field    MFString    behavior        []
    	 field    SFBool      mustEvaluate     FALSE
    	 field    SFBool      directOutputs    FALSE

     # any number of the following
     	eventIn         eventTypeName    eventName
	eventOut        eventTypeName    eventName
	field           fieldTypeName    fieldName    initialValue
}


... you could have something like...

	eventIn SFFloat move_tentacle1

in your script node and at the bottom of the vrml file you'd have 
something like ...

		ROUTE blah.move_tentacle1 monster.tentacle_position1

... so if messages coming in via a socket to the script node follow this 
basic format, openvrml might be able to read them and wave your 
monster's tentacle or whatever you want to do.

I think though, that there has to be some kind of explicit connection to 
the API made in the VRML 'browser' itself and I'm not sure how OpenVrml 
goes with this (anyone know?).

Anyhow, this is as far as I have got from reading but I still don't know 
how to do this so please clue me in if you can.

Oh yes, a physics engine too please! :)
Seriously have you seen the javascript API stuff that Adobe Atmosphere 
uses now? The havok physics engine is called via javascript. It lets you 
knock an object over in a multi-user virtual world and others will see 
it as it rols down the stairs and bounces off the wall.
http://www.adobe.com/products/atmosphere/main.html

Hmm, better get on with what they are paying me to do here (having fun 
with ARToolkit basically) :)

Rod.